Most of us Probably have a "Recall" (CVT)
- Thread starter jeremy_283
- Start date
Off-topic.
I was just thinking - this simulation of shift points to give the impression of more power. Now, I know very little about cars, but it seems to me that it's actually *less* efficient at producing acceleration. Instead of staying at the lower motor-to-wheel ratio during the whole acceleration, it has to drop down to a higher ratio (or do something else to reduce the RPM) to produce this feeling/sound - during which acceleration will be decreased. And to do it only when accelerating hard - which is to say, when the driver (who would most often be the paying customer) has told the car he wants everything he can safely get - that is just plain insulting and especially galling. F*cking focus group engineering.
I'm gonna take mine (2018 LE) out on the tollway and see if this complete nonsense is still present in any part of my hard acceleration. So far I haven't seen it, but I've only floored it a few times, and then when merging or changing lanes and wasn't watching RPM or listening to the engine.
I'm gonna try S gear, too. If that makes all this crap happen at higher RPM, then I'll be happy to have that in my "tool-kit".
My main concern is passing and merging on the expressway. Normally, I am not big on flooring it. I'm not at the track doing 1/4 mile runs.
QUESTION: In 2018, is there any way to turn fake shift points off? I've seen statements in forums in past years that there was no way for the user to do it.
I was just thinking - this simulation of shift points to give the impression of more power. Now, I know very little about cars, but it seems to me that it's actually *less* efficient at producing acceleration. Instead of staying at the lower motor-to-wheel ratio during the whole acceleration, it has to drop down to a higher ratio (or do something else to reduce the RPM) to produce this feeling/sound - during which acceleration will be decreased. And to do it only when accelerating hard - which is to say, when the driver (who would most often be the paying customer) has told the car he wants everything he can safely get - that is just plain insulting and especially galling. F*cking focus group engineering.
I'm gonna take mine (2018 LE) out on the tollway and see if this complete nonsense is still present in any part of my hard acceleration. So far I haven't seen it, but I've only floored it a few times, and then when merging or changing lanes and wasn't watching RPM or listening to the engine.
I'm gonna try S gear, too. If that makes all this crap happen at higher RPM, then I'll be happy to have that in my "tool-kit".
My main concern is passing and merging on the expressway. Normally, I am not big on flooring it. I'm not at the track doing 1/4 mile runs.
QUESTION: In 2018, is there any way to turn fake shift points off? I've seen statements in forums in past years that there was no way for the user to do it.
Absolutely ! (and less efficient at MPG too). Remember when Williams-Renault's CVT was banned from F1 because the advantage it gave them would have forced other teams to go CVT, then the sound of the show would have been less appealing, according to Mr Ecclestone (sigh !). More than from focus groups, fake shift points helped get pass the reviewers barrier. They went from "bad car because it has a CVT" to "not bad for a CVT" to now recommending it (talking AT here, MT being another debate). The irony is that we're now stuck with those and most if not all CVTs on the market use them. On the other hand, let's face it, in cars like Corolla, the difference remains marginal at worst.
No you can't. But my personal experience, as I said, is that they don't engage when you accelerate gradually. Only if I have to use the gas pedal as an on/off switch (which many do...), meaning pressing the gas pedal to a certain point in one step.
It mimics a 7 speed AT, not such a big deal either (and allows paddle shifters on some models, another marketing argument). The new 12th gen Corolla has 10 "speeds"... plus one real gear !
No you can't. But my personal experience, as I said, is that they don't engage when you accelerate gradually. Only if I have to use the gas pedal as an on/off switch (which many do...), meaning pressing the gas pedal to a certain point in one step.
It mimics a 7 speed AT, not such a big deal either (and allows paddle shifters on some models, another marketing argument). The new 12th gen Corolla has 10 "speeds"... plus one real gear !
First off, I'm not arguing with you below, more with Toyota and everybody else who has succumbed to this foolishness,
So the assholes whose job it is to actually understand this stuff are just a bunch of stupid shitheads, too?
Right, I'm not talking about gradual, I'm talking about as fast as I can get for e.g. merging, especially when some idiot driving behind the gap I'm merging into incomprehensibly decides to increase his speed while I'm doing it. Which I have had happen to me.
I guess. My previous was a 3-speed automatic, so this is definitely a step up.
So the assholes whose job it is to actually understand this stuff are just a bunch of stupid shitheads, too?
Right, I'm not talking about gradual, I'm talking about as fast as I can get for e.g. merging, especially when some idiot driving behind the gap I'm merging into incomprehensibly decides to increase his speed while I'm doing it. Which I have had happen to me.
I guess. My previous was a 3-speed automatic, so this is definitely a step up.
Marketing and reviewers have a part of the blame, but to me it’s up to the consumers to have awareness and know what they need and buy… and what they read.
Many reviewers have a bias, conscious or not, toward sporty. Manufacturers will provide higher end or sportier version of a model and most reviews will be about those, creating a more or less true aura around the model compare to the basic versions most people actually buy.Comes a Corolla with no real sport version and almost all reviewers will discard it as beige, boring, slow… That’s a 2 edges sword, though. While reviewers rave about DCT for their sportiveness (true), how many consumers overlook their roughness in daily driving (ask Ford about the resulting – and deserved? – following public relation nightmare).
When the CVT Corolla with fake shift points was introduced, it was magical: almost no reviewers talked about the CVT itself, but about paddle shifting. So in the case of the Corolla, it gains some acceptance without, frankly, bothering most of its market, as long as there is a “D” on the shift stick… Not so many of its buyers even care that the car has only 132/140 HP and probably even less about the -0.1s 0-60 mph or +0,1 mpg that might have been otherwise !
Many reviewers have a bias, conscious or not, toward sporty. Manufacturers will provide higher end or sportier version of a model and most reviews will be about those, creating a more or less true aura around the model compare to the basic versions most people actually buy.Comes a Corolla with no real sport version and almost all reviewers will discard it as beige, boring, slow… That’s a 2 edges sword, though. While reviewers rave about DCT for their sportiveness (true), how many consumers overlook their roughness in daily driving (ask Ford about the resulting – and deserved? – following public relation nightmare).
When the CVT Corolla with fake shift points was introduced, it was magical: almost no reviewers talked about the CVT itself, but about paddle shifting. So in the case of the Corolla, it gains some acceptance without, frankly, bothering most of its market, as long as there is a “D” on the shift stick… Not so many of its buyers even care that the car has only 132/140 HP and probably even less about the -0.1s 0-60 mph or +0,1 mpg that might have been otherwise !
Impossible to establish, since we don't know the algorithm. But a lot of factors comes into play. Why 137 HP in iM vs 140 HP in LE Eco with the same engine ? There is marketing, but engineering also !
Be positive : from 45-70, you're still faster than those who chose the 4AT when it was available and, this may come as a surprise, faster than S/XSE variants (heavier and with bigger tires). But you still lag behind my LE Eco
Be positive : from 45-70, you're still faster than those who chose the 4AT when it was available and, this may come as a surprise, faster than S/XSE variants (heavier and with bigger tires). But you still lag behind my LE Eco
iM and LE Eco have the Valvematic version (electric instead of mechanical control of valve opening. More mpg and (marginally) more power, but still different in one and the other. There is even more: the version of our engine in the Lotus Elise has 217 hp (supercharged)… Engineering and marketing which, from sales number, seems to work for Toyota! And also explain why some are keen on modifying their cars (not my cup of tea, though !)
To put this thread back on track, I’ll say that the Valvematic also had a firmware update at one point. No big deal, it’s just the way cars, with more and more electronics, are today.
To put this thread back on track, I’ll say that the Valvematic also had a firmware update at one point. No big deal, it’s just the way cars, with more and more electronics, are today.
If this is true, then the reviewers are shitheads. They actually were persuaded by something that reduced performance?! Amazing. It's hard to believe that anybody pays people that fucking stupid to write. God help anybody who listens to anything those reviewers say.
And yes, we're stuck with the fake "shit points". I floored mine today while merging, and was not amused to see the needle drop from near 6000 to near 5000 RPM, multiple times. Why even bother with a CVT when it's been enstupidiated?
And yes, we're stuck with the fake "shit points". I floored mine today while merging, and was not amused to see the needle drop from near 6000 to near 5000 RPM, multiple times. Why even bother with a CVT when it's been enstupidiated?
Wow! The rant! Reviewers review a car as is, not as what it could/should be (which, really, wouldn’t help much the buyers). Like manufacturers, they have to please/attract audience in a market not ready, right or wrong, to accept “pure” CVT. In the case of the Corolla, 20 HP or so less than competition draw more immediate attention anyway.
Reviewers are no less exempt of perceptions than any human being. Especially since most of them are enthusiasts, not engineers. Perceptions vs reality are everywhere : TC slow cars as they prevent tire screeching, bigger wheels are better, noise is power (special mention to fake exhaust sounds via speakers…). Beside, it’s true of any subject, not just cars.
On the other hand, let’s get some perspective. There are tons of information sources of various natures, namely engineering, beside “reviews and opinions”. And frankly, what’s the real impact of this? Listening to reviewers, everybody would be driving a MT Mazda3 yet Corolla outsells it 4:1 anyway… And that’s including AT Mazda3!
Reviewers review a car as is, not as what it could/should be (which, really, wouldn’t help much the buyers). Like manufacturers, they have to please/attract audience in a market not ready, right or wrong, to accept “pure” CVT. In the case of the Corolla, 20 HP or so less than competition draw more immediate attention anyway.Reviewers are no less exempt of perceptions than any human being. Especially since most of them are enthusiasts, not engineers. Perceptions vs reality are everywhere : TC slow cars as they prevent tire screeching, bigger wheels are better, noise is power (special mention to fake exhaust sounds via speakers…). Beside, it’s true of any subject, not just cars.
On the other hand, let’s get some perspective. There are tons of information sources of various natures, namely engineering, beside “reviews and opinions”. And frankly, what’s the real impact of this? Listening to reviewers, everybody would be driving a MT Mazda3 yet Corolla outsells it 4:1 anyway… And that’s including AT Mazda3!
Long story short: 2014 to 2017 models with CVT need a firmware upgrade as the current one may allow some premature solenoid wear under certain conditions. A campaign was launch but quickly suspended (bunch of worried posts above ), replaced by the current one to include diagnosis (and replacement if needed) of VBC-solenoid. If it’s OK, you only need the firmware update. All 2018 models have been produced with the updated firmware.
Even shorter: Yes, check your VIN ( https://www.toyota.com/recall ) but since your received the letter…
), replaced by the current one to include diagnosis (and replacement if needed) of VBC-solenoid. If it’s OK, you only need the firmware update. All 2018 models have been produced with the updated firmware.Even shorter: Yes, check your VIN ( https://www.toyota.com/recall ) but since your received the letter…
Wow! The rant!
I am not a mechanical engineer (although I did receive a degree in electronic engineering).
I would think any reviewer worth anything should have been able to figure out - just like I did, by understanding the smallest amount about how transmissions work, and thinking about it - that artificially lowerng the RPM in the CVT car would decrease the performance. (Though I guess I would probably be wrong thinking that.) And unless Toyota made other changes, the numbers should have borne that out, too.
Oh yeah, that's just amazing.
Yeah. Maybe what I really should have done was: swallow hard, and bought a Camry. CVT or 8AT - at 200 HP it probably won't matter - unless the weight is a lot greater. Also, I am, for some reason, depressed that the Corolla has 0 trailer capacity.
Maybe they did but the car is what it is. Interesting but not that necessary to be technical and explain that, because of the way CVTs work Toyota could have extract x10th s. more but chose to implement fake shift points. And how does a reviewer establish that without any identical unit with no shift points? That would be a long and boring algorithm demonstration not belonging in a review. The (relevant) gist was : "If you don't like CVT, don't worry, this one works just like a regular automatic".
Compare to what ? This is the first ever CVT in a Corolla. The (again relevant) gist was : "It's smoother, quicker and get better MPG than the 4AT" (4AT was still available at the time). I could understand the point if reviewing a Subaru or Nissan when they added fake shift points to their regular CVTs. It wouldn't even be possible to compare the new 10 "speeds" vs the current one since the new Corolla also has 36 more HP. Plus acceleration numbers give a good idea but are never precise, which is why they vary from test to test (and even in repetition of a same test).
I'm afraid that won't help it : the exact same Corolla, with same engine and CVT is rated at 900 pounds on other markets. Go figure.
Compare to what ? This is the first ever CVT in a Corolla. The (again relevant) gist was : "It's smoother, quicker and get better MPG than the 4AT" (4AT was still available at the time). I could understand the point if reviewing a Subaru or Nissan when they added fake shift points to their regular CVTs. It wouldn't even be possible to compare the new 10 "speeds" vs the current one since the new Corolla also has 36 more HP. Plus acceleration numbers give a good idea but are never precise, which is why they vary from test to test (and even in repetition of a same test).
I'm afraid that won't help it : the exact same Corolla, with same engine and CVT is rated at 900 pounds on other markets. Go figure.
OK, I thought (if I thought about it at all) that there were "before fake shift points CVT" and an "after fake shift points CVT" versions which might have had different numbers. But yeah, I could see it getting lost due to imprecision..... if the difference was small enough.
That's the damnedest thing! So really, the same car? Where is that? Is this because the U.S. is so lawsuit-prone?
That's the damnedest thing! So really, the same car? Where is that? Is this because the U.S. is so lawsuit-prone?
In Corolla, no. In other brands, yes. CVTs still bear the stigma of the first Nissan units only partially because the first batch was poorly executed. North-American consumers simply didn’t get how those trans worked. Nissan’s forums were flooded with “mine has a defect too but the dealer will do nothing”.
The alleged “defects”? It’s stuck in first gear, it doesn’t change speed (well, that’s how it works!); engine rev like crazy but the car doesn’t go (false impression induce by the traditional association between movement and rev fluctuation). Which amplified the perception by some that CVTs are inherently flawed, despite statistics showing that CVTs failure rate (or firmware update…) is in no way different (even slightly better, actually) than regular AT (which aren’t invincible). Actually, they are the most efficient type of AT at managing power.
Since manufacturers aren’t charitable educational institutions, they went fake shift points and I don’t expect we’ll see the end of it. We lost something, but it’s in all probability marginal. We’re talking econoboxes here, not high end sport cars. Kind of asking “why 132 HP and not 134” in the Corolla. Rhetorical. You search, you test drive, you’re pleased or not and decide to buy a model or not.
Everywhere else outside NA (an example from South-Africa here). Not sure why, maybe fear of lawsuits, yes, but in NA Toyota stick with a safe "not recommended" without any precision.
The alleged “defects”? It’s stuck in first gear, it doesn’t change speed (well, that’s how it works!); engine rev like crazy but the car doesn’t go (false impression induce by the traditional association between movement and rev fluctuation). Which amplified the perception by some that CVTs are inherently flawed, despite statistics showing that CVTs failure rate (or firmware update…) is in no way different (even slightly better, actually) than regular AT (which aren’t invincible). Actually, they are the most efficient type of AT at managing power.
Since manufacturers aren’t charitable educational institutions, they went fake shift points and I don’t expect we’ll see the end of it. We lost something, but it’s in all probability marginal. We’re talking econoboxes here, not high end sport cars. Kind of asking “why 132 HP and not 134” in the Corolla. Rhetorical. You search, you test drive, you’re pleased or not and decide to buy a model or not.
Everywhere else outside NA (an example from South-Africa here). Not sure why, maybe fear of lawsuits, yes, but in NA Toyota stick with a safe "not recommended" without any precision.
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This is absolutely pure speculation on my part:
This may have been the last Model Year for this specific part - the 2019 CVTs are different. (I read that the direct 1st gear allowed the rest of the new CVT to be smaller and lighter.) Up until recently , Toyota may have thought they were mostly done making this part... except for normal failure rates and ongoing support as required by law.
So yes, they may be scrambling to find and/or make these things.
This may have been the last Model Year for this specific part - the 2019 CVTs are different. (I read that the direct 1st gear allowed the rest of the new CVT to be smaller and lighter.) Up until recently , Toyota may have thought they were mostly done making this part... except for normal failure rates and ongoing support as required by law.
So yes, they may be scrambling to find and/or make these things.
The production of the K313 is still going on, including for the 2019 Corolla sedan which is still unchanged 11th gen (only the hatch is 12th gen with the Direct Shift CVT). But yes, there might be short term production issues. But since Toyota took 3 months to prepare the new campaign, I’m more incline to think stock management at local (dealer) or regional level. Or even that “part” is the convenient short answer but time is the issue. From one of the posts here, it’s apparently a 5 hours job if they have to repair and I’m quite sure they want to avoid the domino effect on other customers.
The campaign was then suspended but is back on track. You can check if your VIN is here : https://www.toyota.com/recall (you also may receive a communication from Toyota). But did you had a diagnostic ? The issue may or may not be related to the campaign.
looks like I have a good sense with the CVT problem. in 2015 I purchased my Corolla S, I already feel the CVT is not working normal and went the dealer ask for inspection but need to charge $120+, Finally they issue recall again, already make appointment, let see what is going on. My car will hit 120K miles this week
Actually read through all your posts and decided to get my ECU updated today, with the hopes that it eliminates the fake shift points. I just made an account on here to share my experience. I can say that it severely cut/eliminated most shift points. The CVT seems a lot more peppy and quick now. It acts much more the way a CVT should. No more transmission jerks (Thank God).
Total time at the dealer (with an apt) ~45 minutes.
Total time at the dealer (with an apt) ~45 minutes.
I wouldn’t say it eliminates them (it doesn’t, and it’s not that I wouldn’t like it) but probably restore the way they are manage without the “premature wear” this update correct.
The fact that you mention less jerking also point toward the fact that your trans really needed the update!
In my case, I didn’t experience any difference between before and after the update.
In both cases, I almost never experience the fake shift points in daily driving, except in situation where hard acceleration is needed.
So, in a world, good for you!
The fact that you mention less jerking also point toward the fact that your trans really needed the update!
In my case, I didn’t experience any difference between before and after the update.
In both cases, I almost never experience the fake shift points in daily driving, except in situation where hard acceleration is needed.
So, in a world, good for you!
So I recently just got a 2016 corolla a few months ago. 47,000 miles. Took it in for the recall on Thursday and picked it up on Friday. Before taking the car in, I had no issues, I didn’t feel any “shift points” like what others have been saying. The receipt said “passed inspection”. I went to drive the car and turned around a came right back. The rpms were jumping all around, and it was very very jerky. They said the first time they drove it didn’t do it. So far I have no idea what’s going on and now they don’t either. They said they don’t know if it’s an issue with their computer or not. That when they plug everything in that it says it’s the right update. I know for sure they have tried 4 different times . They also they don’t know if maybe it’s an issues on my car ecm. Worst case they said that will replace the transmission. When I was leaving I saw them take my car out again for the test drive. So I went and asked if they had any new info. And the guy said they are trying a new program or something. And obviously that didn’t work either because they were there another 2 hours before they close and I didn’t get a call saying that I could pick my car up. My fear is that they will say it’s all good to go and “updated” and the best I get my car, drive it, and 6 months down the road or whatever, my transmission takes a shit.
I don't either most of the time but if you've really never ever encounter them that means either you have very (almost oddly) stable driving habits/conditions or... there was an issue in the first place.
There is only one update, so indeed, it's the right one. An issue while downloading with their computer is a possibility but it usually generate some immediate error code.
Also possible but it would be troubling that they didn't noticed it during "inspection" or at least post test drive.
Low risk. Your own experience teach that if the update doesn't work, it's immediately evident. And they also have to send the data to Toyota.
Pure speculation of my part but all this makes me think that they didn't properly evaluate the trans before updating it nor test the result afterward, two essentials steps added in the current campaign (JSD) vs the suspended former one (J0D), as the update prevents "premature wear" but can't help if it has already occured ("I didn't feel any shift points"...), in which case the CVT should be repair (or replace, depending) first.
There is only one update, so indeed, it's the right one. An issue while downloading with their computer is a possibility but it usually generate some immediate error code.
Also possible but it would be troubling that they didn't noticed it during "inspection" or at least post test drive.
Low risk. Your own experience teach that if the update doesn't work, it's immediately evident. And they also have to send the data to Toyota.
Pure speculation of my part but all this makes me think that they didn't properly evaluate the trans before updating it nor test the result afterward, two essentials steps added in the current campaign (JSD) vs the suspended former one (J0D), as the update prevents "premature wear" but can't help if it has already occured ("I didn't feel any shift points"...), in which case the CVT should be repair (or replace, depending) first.