Intake and Exhaust Upgrade Debate

[stusmith]

The general consensus seems to be that an air intake upgrade does not result in horsepower increase. I'm pretty sure and upgraded exhaust is not going to increase horsepower.

Some of the aftermarket muffler and exhaust company websites claim their products will increase fuel mileage.

So the question is: what would both an upgrade air intake and muffler get you? Is it just about the sound? Would there be an increase in fuel economy? Are there any specific product combos that work better than others?

 

[TigerHeli]

I don't think your data is accurate, I think intake and exhaust probably each increase both HP and fuel economy - but you would see more benefit if you could re-tune the ECM for the increase capacity - which I don't think you can do on a Toyota engine.

That said -

I tend to like Flowmaster, but mainly just for sound.

In a best case scenario, I would guess you might pick up 5-10 HP and MAYBE 0.5 MPG for a $300-$500 expenditure and possible warranty hassles.

(You shouldn't have warranty issues unless the intake or exhaust caused the problems - but if your engine fails at 50K miles, expect the dealer to SAY that the mod caused it, and you having to prove it did not ...)

 

[Scott O'Kashan]

 

[DjAnnexAlpha]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCi2yo4UqPI

That was the first vid that popped into my head lol

 

[Scott O'Kashan]

That was the first vid that popped into my head lol

:thumbsup:

Today's modern cars are a whole new ball game than the cars of yesterday.

We can try to improve airflow all we want, but if the onboard computer is not designed to take advantage of it, it will still deliver the exact same air to fuel ratio no matter what we do. Ditto with the exhaust.

I've read extensively on tests completed with dirty air filters in our modern cars and because of the onboard computer controlling air to fuel ratios, a dirty air filter, (unless it is absolutely totally plugged), will not reduce fuel economy, as the onboard computer takes the reduced airflow from the dirty air filter into account and automatically adjusts the air to fuel ratio to compensate for it, maintaining the same air to fuel ratio. The converse is then also true where a higher flowing air filter that has the potential to flow more air will not have a benefit. Again, the onboard computer is controlling the air to fuel ratio.

The Mythbusters video I posted above documents this very well.

 

[DjAnnexAlpha]

It is true that the game has changed but small things can increase horsepower...on a very minuscule level. The electronic parameters must be modified to actually get more power, like the air/fuel ratio etc. Most cars nowadays already HAVE a type of ram intake system... stock. The corolla is one of them.

 

[TigerHeli]

If you have access to the software (or if you don't) it's more a matter of the trade-offs ...

i.e. - you could add a Nitrous system and get more power - but you probably void the 60K powertrain warranty, and the OEM won't want to sell the car that way.

You could add a turbo and get more power, but you again void the 60K warranty, and for the OEM, you add power, but probably hurt fuel economy (at least with a 1.8 Turbo compared to say a 1.3 Turbo that made the same power as the 1.8 NA).

You can tweak the fuel computer, and likely make more power and better fuel economy with premium fuel to the point that the fuel savings outweighs the extra cost of the fuel - but then you have to deal with mis-fires or detonation if the owner runs regular fuel or customers that won't buy the car b/c it required premium fuel even if it is less expensive to operate.

 

[ZeCorolla]

I remember reading on a different forum about some kind of part that would tune the ECU on the 10th gen Corolla so that it would let the full potential out of the aftermarket parts such as the exhaust. Once I find it, I'll update you guys on it.

 

[Scott O'Kashan]

No aftermarket part of any kind will void original equipment warranty's per the federal law known as the Magnuson Moss Act.

 

[TigerHeli]

No aftermarket part of any kind will void original equipment warranty's per the federal law known as the Magnuson Moss Act.

Correct - provided the modification didn't cause the failure ... (But now try to argue with Toyota that the piston developed a hole burnt through it b/c of bad metallurgy and not b/c of the NOS kit you were running.)

 

[ZeCorolla]

I found quite a few things:
GReddy e-Manage Programmable Piggy-Back ECU:
http://www.phantasmusa.com/greddy15500500.html
Power Enterprise Camcon Ti Cam Timing & Air/Fuel Controller:
http://www.fastscions.com/Scion-VVTi-Power-Enterprise-Camcon-Ex-Controller-CC-EXO.aspx
Unichip Performance Computer Module:
http://www.unichip.us/vehicle/vehicles/3484-2009-Toyota-Corolla-18L

 

[Scott O'Kashan]

Correct - provided the modification didn't cause the failure ... (But now try to argue with Toyota that the piston developed a hole burnt through it b/c of bad metallurgy and not b/c of the NOS kit you were running.)

Don't have to argue. They have to do that, by proving whatever aftermarket part damaged another otherwise warranteed part. It can't be just assumed.

 

[TigerHeli]

Don't have to argue. They have to do that, by proving whatever aftermarket part damaged another otherwise warranteed part. It can't be just assumed.

Let's talk theory vs. real world.

In theory (and law) you are correct - they have to prove it to deny the warranty claim.

Now - in the real world - it depends a bit on the manufacturer, but if you go to the dealer with a nitrous bottle plumbed into the fuel system and a hole in the piston, they are going to deny the claim. Then it is up to YOU to get a lawyer to prove that they should honor the claim.

Eventually - assuming you can explain to the judge's satisfaction that the NOS did NOT contribute to the failure of the piston, you will probably be awarded court costs and legal fees and they will have to fix the car ...

But you are still out legal fees up front until you win the case and your car is not driveable for six months or more until you win the case - if you win ...

 

[Scott O'Kashan]

A Toyota dealer has no legal right or authority to void a warranty. Only a Toyota employee, i.e. Zone Representative can do that. A Toyota dealership is independent of Toyota Inc.

Secondly, Toyota Inc. is well aware of the Magnuson Moss Warranty Act and is not going to knowingly violate the law, with all the problems that will cause them, fines, bad press, etc.

Thirdly, motorists have a plethora of consumer protection laws and agencies on their side such as the Better Business Bureau, the Bureau of Consumer Protection, the Federal Trade Commission,the Department of Motor Vehicles and even the Office of the Attorney General. Hiring an attorney would not be necessary.

Knowingly violating consumer protection federal law is not a road any company wants to go down.

In your example, one piston out of a set of four failing would not be the fault of any aftermarket part, such as nitrous oxide. That would obviously be a defective piston. The nitrous oxide isn't going to single out just one piston.:thumbup1:

 

[TigerHeli]

Hang out in the Focus and Hyundai/Kia forums a little bit.

Plenty of cases of the dealers saying an obvious failure was not warranted for any number of reasons, including modifications - I think the worst case was a guy that was out $13K for an ECU b/c he installed HID bulbs in the headlights. From what I remember he eventually got his car fixed and/or his money back, but ...

 

[TigerHeli]

In fairness - most of the cases I can remember weren't "You modified this, so it isn't covered", most of them were "No, all our cars leave a block wide smoke screen from time to time, there is nothing for us to fix."

Not that it makes the owner feel any better b/c of that.

 

[Scott O'Kashan]

Hang out in the Focus and Hyundai/Kia forums a little bit.

Plenty of cases of the dealers saying an obvious failure was not warranted for any number of reasons, including modifications - I think the worst case was a guy that was out $13K for an ECU b/c he installed HID bulbs in the headlights. From what I remember he eventually got his car fixed and/or his money back, but ...

Again, the independent dealers of a car company have no right or legal authority to void warranties. That is incredibly illegal. It's not their car!

If the owners of those cars are going to sit back and allow themselves to be abused, ripped off, victims of illegal activity and cheated, that's their own darned fault.

It certainly doesn't mean that ignoring a federal law, the Magnuson Moss Warranty Act is, "okay" and any car dealer can do it.

No.

 

[stusmith]

Gee, all I wanted was to know if aftermarket exhaust and intakes could increase fuel mileage, or if they just sounded cool. :huh:

But thanks for the interesting dialog.

 

[Scott O'Kashan]

Mythbusted. :thumbsup:

 

[Donabed Kopoian]

Your bottneck is in the heads. Intake and Exhaust do nothing and can actually hurt your performance. They show dyno gains, but there are several variables to engine horsepower. If they dynoed the new intake system on a colder day, BAM! We have a HP gain!!!

 

[stusmith]

If they dynoed the new intake system on a colder day, BAM! We have a HP gain!!!

Are you suggesting I move to Alaska? :laughing:

 

[Donabed Kopoian]

If you want the most horsepower out of your car, yes. Make sure you are at a low altitude as well, LOL!

 

[VTAK8k]

Have you ever noticed how much better your car runs on a cold day(after the car is warmed up)? On hot humid days your car will run more sluggish, even if you don't run the AC in it.