Greetings. Thinking about getting first Toyota

[Dirk]

So, I've always been a Ford or Chevy guy -- because, quite frankly, their crowds have been the loudest insisting you must support American stuff, blah, blah.

But after having a new Ford fall apart at 100k and a new Chevy that has had 5 recalls and given me numerous problems long before 100k, I am seeking either Toyota or Honda.

I know that now they build the things here so we still support American workers by buying Toyota.

So, I have a Chevy with a CVT Tranny that has given me issues. I am not impressed with the CVT -- good gas mileage or not. Jatco produces a ton of these things that dont last and GM uses GM powertrain and they don't seem to work that well either. It seems they should have just left these CVT trannys in snowmobiles where they originated from.

Now, that leads me to my current dilemma. My budget, if I go Toyota, is either used Camry or new Corolla. If the Corolla didn't have a CVT in it I wouldnt think twice about it. But since they do, I'm leaning towards 2014-17 Camry.

Can anyone share with me their experience with these models? Did Corolla clean up their tranny issues? I know they had a somewhat recall on thousands of them -- they just reworded with linguistic gymnastics so it doesn't sound so bad. Anyone owned both Camry and Corolla? What where the differences besides size and transmission type?

Thanks

 

[jolly]

I was in the same boat as you after decades of buying American. My current Corolla is my first “foreign” (although build here) car… and I’d have never even dream that a car could be that trouble free. 5 years, 60K with just oil changes (and 2 firmware updates, more on that lower). Maybe just luck but my previous US ones all had to have some warranty repairs (good service and all, but still…) until my last one, utterly garbage at a young age, triggered the move to Toyota.

Yes, as mentioned, the car had 2 firmware updates: one for the Valvematic engine (Eco version) and one for the CVT. If that’s the issue you’re referring to, it’s because the original firmware for NA versions was allowing too much stress on some components of the transmission under some conditions (frequent high rpm). Statistically, it appears that only some units did suffer actual damage before the correction. Newer Corolla (2018-2019) already has the revised firmware.

If you’re talking about the new generation Corolla (2019 hatchback and coming 2020 sedan), a limited and specific batch (around 3000 units) were assembled with a defective part in the CVT. That’s a different story and those were indeed an official recall.

GM either uses GM, Fiat (hum…) or Jatco units. The latter and CVT in general have some bad reputation because of infamous iteration but globally CVT in car are almost as old as AT (12 years old for those in current Corolla, if newer to NA) and their history is no more no less punctuate than AT with either bad or good stories.

All I can say about the Camry is that it’s bigger (though the Corolla almost match it in interior space except, of course, in width) and a bit more comfy and also quite economical on gas – result may vary! A stripped Camry might not cost much more than a loaded Corolla so it goes with one’s priorities. Since the current gen Corolla is gone in a few months and the sedan market is down, there could also be great deals on those still on the lot vs used ones that generally retained good value.

 

[Dirk]

I was in the same boat as you after decades of buying American. My current Corolla is my first “foreign” (although build here) car… and I’d have never even dream that a car could be that trouble free. 5 years, 60K with just oil changes (and 2 firmware updates, more on that lower). Maybe just luck but my previous US ones all had to have some warranty repairs (good service and all, but still…) until my last one, utterly garbage at a young age, triggered the move to Toyota.

Yes, as mentioned, the car had 2 firmware updates: one for the Valvematic engine (Eco version) and one for the CVT. If that’s the issue you’re referring to, it’s because the original firmware for NA versions was allowing too much stress on some components of the transmission under some conditions (frequent high rpm). Statistically, it appears that only some units did suffer actual damage before the correction. Newer Corolla (2018-2019) already has the revised firmware.

If you’re talking about the new generation Corolla (2019 hatchback and coming 2020 sedan), a limited and specific batch (around 3000 units) were assembled with a defective part in the CVT. That’s a different story and those were indeed an official recall.

GM either uses GM, Fiat (hum…) or Jatco units. The latter and CVT in general have some bad reputation because of infamous iteration but globally CVT in car are almost as old as AT (12 years old for those in current Corolla, if newer to NA) and their history is no more no less punctuate than AT with either bad or good stories.

All I can say about the Camry is that it’s bigger (though the Corolla almost match it in interior space except, of course, in width) and a bit more comfy and also quite economical on gas – result may vary! A stripped Camry might not cost much more than a loaded Corolla so it goes with one’s priorities. Since the current gen Corolla is gone in a few months and the sedan market is down, there could also be great deals on those still on the lot vs used ones that generally retained good value.

Thanks, Jolly. GM, in particular, has taken taxpayer dollars and given us the middle finger. Their rep is in the toilet. Ford is phasing out car production almost entirely... Going mainly with Trucks/Suv's and Mustangs. So I think the roads in 10 years are going to be full of Toyotas and Honda sedans.

I've heard Toyota called the 3,400 cars recalled a "special service campaign" rather than a actual recall, which is what it is. Seems CVT trannys are not perfected yet if even Toyota, which is known for durability, is having issues.

I did not realize the current gen Corolla is gone in a few months. Had to look it up after i read your post. Toyota has suped up the 2020 version a lot. Totally new dimensions.

Memorial day always has specials on cars at all these main car dealers. I might just wait till then or even October.

 

[jolly]

I've heard Toyota called the 3,400 cars recalled a "special service campaign" rather than a actual recall, which is what it is. Seems CVT trannys are not perfected yet if even Toyota, which is known for durability, is having issues.

No. As I mentioned, those 3400 2019 Corolla hatchback are officially a «recall» and designated as such by both Toyota and the NHTSA. Those are specific units produced in September 2018 at Tsutsumi (Japan) plant with a defective part. It’s a production mishap, not a design problem. The «service campaign» is for the 2014-2017. A recall is a «recall» only when security is involved (like a trans part that may break while driving…). A «service campaign» is more on the preventive side. In 2013, Toyota recalled 10K cars for a defective wiper switch: that doesn’t say that wiper technology is not “perfected”!

Again, if you look at statistics, you won’t find a greater ratio of CVT recalls/campaign vs other type of transmission and the technology isn’t new at all, except to North-Americans : 12 years worldwide for the Aisin-Toyota CVT in current Corolla, and it will still be used in most versions of the next generation (higher-end variants – the one with some units recalled – getting a fancier complex combo AT/CVT like Lexus). With millions of units in circulation worldwide (1.5 in NA) without a surge/trend in complaints it would be a hell of a plot if they were so bad.

In NA, I suspect that most in fear for reliability actually rather don’t like or are ill at ease with the way a CVT work. Nissan-Jatco sure had its problems in the first year of introduction but it was funny/sad reading about such a wave of non-existing “problems” on forums, noticeably transmissions “stucked in first gear and Nissan would do nothing”… CVTs have no gear but one! (Which is probably why Corolla mimics a 7AT with electronics fake shift points).

 

[Dirk]

No. As I mentioned, those 3400 2019 Corolla hatchback are officially a «recall» and designated as such by both Toyota and the NHTSA. Those are specific units produced in September 2018 at Tsutsumi (Japan) plant with a defective part. It’s a production mishap, not a design problem. The «service campaign» is for the 2014-2017. A recall is a «recall» only when security is involved (like a trans part that may break while driving…). A «service campaign» is more on the preventive side. In 2013, Toyota recalled 10K cars for a defective wiper switch: that doesn’t say that wiper technology is not “perfected”!

Again, if you look at statistics, you won’t find a greater ratio of CVT recalls/campaign vs other type of transmission and the technology isn’t new at all, except to North-Americans : 12 years worldwide for the Aisin-Toyota CVT in current Corolla, and it will still be used in most versions of the next generation (higher-end variants – the one with some units recalled – getting a fancier complex combo AT/CVT like Lexus). With millions of units in circulation worldwide (1.5 in NA) without a surge/trend in complaints it would be a hell of a plot if they were so bad.

In NA, I suspect that most in fear for reliability actually rather don’t like or are ill at ease with the way a CVT work. Nissan-Jatco sure had its problems in the first year of introduction but it was funny/sad reading about such a wave of non-existing “problems” on forums, noticeably transmissions “stucked in first gear and Nissan would do nothing”… CVTs have no gear but one! (Which is probably why Corolla mimics a 7AT with electronics fake shift points).

I have a mechanic friend who told me CVT's are great and the tranny of the future thanks to good gas mileage. Heck, maybe they are but the Jatco situation was absolutely ridiculous and really soured a lot of people's opinions on them. Couple that with my experience with GM who does not use Jatco, and it makes for a overall bad opinion of them. I know Aisen has a better reputation and am hoping if I get a Corolla the thing lasts for a long time.

Do you happen to know the maintenance recommendation on the Corolla? Flush or just drain? And do you flush your own? I've heard stay away from flush and just drain. I've owned 2 cars in my life with Tranny issues and want to avoid a 3rd.

 

[jolly]

Do you happen to know the maintenance recommendation on the Corolla? Flush or just drain?

Maintenance per the manual is the same as any Toyota’s regular AT: check every 30K and act appropriately (with mandatory fluid change at 60K for “severe usage”). Quite vague, which lead to the urban legend of “lifetime fluid” – and Toyota getting smashed for it although in actuality nowhere is Toyota saying it.

Those, like most modern transmission, don’t have a dipstick so I leave this to the mechanic as with CVT, it’s not just about fluid level but fluid condition as degradation beyond normal wear might be a sign of problem. It was the case with GM-Fiat CVT (by the way GM do use GM or Fiat or Jatco, depending on models), with fluid rapidly contaminated with metal scrap (poor metal quality of the CVT). In the first Nissan-Jatco, the firmware allowed over-heating of the CVT, thus foaming of the fluid. At this point, the CVT might sustain damage that will remain even after a fluid change. Which is why this first Nissan-Jatco batch remained fragile afterward, plaguing the reputation of CVT (optimists would say that the number of surviving units is, on the opposite, a sign of their solidity!).

Flushing is not necessary in new/maintained transmission and not recommended in older ones where it could displace gunk the trans has adapted to and put undue pressure on gaskets, rings, etc., so…

2 bad transmissions? Was there a CVT among them? GM and pre-FCA Chrysler has a good reputation with regular AT (pre BMW Rolls-Royce used them), Ford and Honda not so much. I’ve been lucky to avoid problems in this area with all my cars. So far…

Anyway, I find mine to be silky smooth and would gladly live without the fake shift points upon hard (for a Corolla…) acceleration but apparently some can’t live with the steadiness of rpm (“drone” or “rubber band” effect) at those moments. And very economical too: 39.8 mpg average over 5 years, hand calculated (Eco version with Valvematic, though). Results will definitely vary!

 

[Dirk]

Maintenance per the manual is the same as any Toyota’s regular AT: check every 30K and act appropriately (with mandatory fluid change at 60K for “severe usage”). Quite vague, which lead to the urban legend of “lifetime fluid” – and Toyota getting smashed for it although in actuality nowhere is Toyota saying it.

Those, like most modern transmission, don’t have a dipstick so I leave this to the mechanic as with CVT, it’s not just about fluid level but fluid condition as degradation beyond normal wear might be a sign of problem. It was the case with GM-Fiat CVT (by the way GM do use GM or Fiat or Jatco, depending on models), with fluid rapidly contaminated with metal scrap (poor metal quality of the CVT). In the first Nissan-Jatco, the firmware allowed over-heating of the CVT, thus foaming of the fluid. At this point, the CVT might sustain damage that will remain even after a fluid change. Which is why this first Nissan-Jatco batch remained fragile afterward, plaguing the reputation of CVT (optimists would say that the number of surviving units is, on the opposite, a sign of their solidity!).

Flushing is not necessary in new/maintained transmission and not recommended in older ones where it could displace gunk the trans has adapted to and put undue pressure on gaskets, rings, etc., so…

2 bad transmissions? Was there a CVT among them? GM and pre-FCA Chrysler has a good reputation with regular AT (pre BMW Rolls-Royce used them), Ford and Honda not so much. I’ve been lucky to avoid problems in this area with all my cars. So far…

Anyway, I find mine to be silky smooth and would gladly live without the fake shift points upon hard (for a Corolla…) acceleration but apparently some can’t live with the steadiness of rpm (“drone” or “rubber band” effect) at those moments. And very economical too: 39.8 mpg average over 5 years, hand calculated (Eco version with Valvematic, though). Results will definitely vary!

Thank you. I feel a little more confident in the CVT now. Leaning Corolla as I do not need a Camry. I think I'd just be paying for extra space that I don't need.

1st Tranny that went bad was an AT in a dodge. I didn't take great care of that one and it just sort of happened at 100k. Don't recall any real warning signs either

I now have a 2014 Spark with CVT and it slips often. Check engine light comes on and points to transmission issues. I am ok driving point A to point B but if i start running errands, etc, it heats up quick. And I have taken good care of this one. Maybe GM snuck a Jatco in there. I know the vehicle is actually Korean made and GM just slapped a Chevy emblem on it.

 

[jolly]

Maybe GM snuck a Jatco in there

Yup! Spark=Jatco! Variants of this CVT are also used in a bunch of Nissan, Mitsubishi and Suzuki. They are not deemed as problematic... except in 2014 Spark as the first GM firmware wasn’t the best at managing it. It was corrected subsequently. This is why I see as positive a “service campaign” by Toyota when they find a way to improve firmware (those are area/model specific, like the fake shift points in NA, although the trans are the same worldwide).

If you go for a used corolla check for rattles. Also, some report Entune premium (radio with navigation and apps) as prone to freezing/rebooting. And check the VIN to see if the update (or any other recall, but there are none currently) still has to be done : https://www.toyota.com/recall

Good luck to you !

 

[Dirk]

Yup! Spark=Jatco! Variants of this CVT are also used in a bunch of Nissan, Mitsubishi and Suzuki. They are not deemed as problematic... except in 2014 Spark as the first GM firmware wasn’t the best at managing it. It was corrected subsequently. This is why I see as positive a “service campaign” by Toyota when they find a way to improve firmware (those are area/model specific, like the fake shift points in NA, although the trans are the same worldwide).

If you go for a used corolla check for rattles. Also, some report Entune premium (radio with navigation and apps) as prone to freezing/rebooting. And check the VIN to see if the update (or any other recall, but there are none currently) still has to be done : https://www.toyota.com/recall

Good luck to you !

Thank you!!!

 

[T3kMan1]

It would be reasonable to purchase this vehicle as a daily reliable driver car.